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A proposal for a Bilateral, Cascaded, Staged, 3-days abortion process


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Hi People,

About a year ago (I think), a new Law legalizing (permitting) abortion was passed here in Argentina. Since according to my spiritist believes, abortion is the early termination of a dawning life, I wanted to build a thoughtful position on the matter and started some research. Eventually, I came up with an idea and started working on a formal proposal. Though I never finished the proposal, partially because I don't think it would go anywhere, the subject of abortion has recently surfaced here on Varanormal, and it occurred to me to start a civilized discussion about it. I know this is a delicate matter but I'm sure we can keep it civilized.

Below is a brief summary of the things I've considered, followed by a brief summary of the proposal (which is a work in progress).

On the one hand, according to a number of spiritist sources, I believe that the soul, or spirit, permanently attaches, or LINKS to the biological body about 8 weeks after conception. That implies that abortion after 8 weeks is the termination of a life just as it is at any other time. Granted, we cannot really tell for sure, not yet, and your timeline might vary.
Science doesn't have a clear answer either and depending on the author and scientific discipline the timeline can be just about anything. Most biologists would tell you that right there upon inception there is everything unique about a human body, at the cell level, while most neurologists would tell you that the higher brain functions aren't fully developed until about 14 weeks. Psychologist would pinpoint the moment at which we are to be considered a person depending on the psychological school, and it can go as early as conception or as late as birth.

I imagine that most of us here on Varanormal adhere to one or another "spiritist" time, placing the point of "incarnation" somewhere between conception and the first few weeks

Additionally, I imagine that most of us here on Varanormal believe that incarnation is not something that spirits do "just like that". Instead, incarnation is a very carefully organized and planned "journey" that begins well before conception or linkage. I like to think of it as analogous to a trip aboard, in which conception is the moment you pass customs and linkage is the moment you are finally in the hotel resting and getting ready for the adventure. From this point of view, abortion might be within the life plans, just as flying to a conflicted country knowing I might not make it past customs.

Clearly, my personal position is that abortion should be avoided at all costs, and justified only in life-threatening situations for the mother.

But on the other hand...

I see our legal and justice system (or any other imposition-based system) as an oversimplified, generalizing, lesser-evil form of social ordering. I think that it doesn't prevent people from wrongdoings. It only, at most, persuades them. For instance, in my humble opinion, I see the drug dealing industry as the perfect example of the complete failure of this form of regulation. 
In the case of abortion, the facts seem to indicate, to me and clearly, that the prohibition to abort is NOT a lesser-evil and it causes more problems that the solutions it offers.
With an effect quite similar (unsurprisingly) to that of drug dealing penalization, it does little to actually prevent abortion cases, and, instead, it simply pushes them all to the underworld. And, again similarly to the case of drug dealing, the abortions are carried on all the same, but, all sort of terrible things go along with it.

So,

On the one hand there is the, alleged I guess, fact that abortion is the early termination of a dawning life, so, it should not be done except in extreme justifiable circumstances.
On the other hand there is the verifiable fact that prohibition doesn't really work, and, worse, it creates an outlawed market that is killing both the babies and the mothers.

What can be done then?

I believe the answer lies, as usual, in the middle. 

It turns out that the law doesn't just either freely allows or prohibits. It can also meet in the middle. A particular person can be allowed to do something for as long as they meet certain conditions, even on a case by case basis. Adoption--a highly related situation--is an example. It is not prohibited to adopt a child but is not something that you can "just go ahead and do" either.

In all countries with pro-abortion laws, there is a regulation which sets the conditions for the lawful termination of the pregnancy. For example, you must not exceed a number of weeks, or the pregnancy must have occurred under specific conditions, etc... In my humble opinion, however, these generalizing conditions are overly simplistic.
There is, I should concede, a reason for the overly simplistic set of conditions for lawful pregnancy termination: The fact that here time really matters. Getting a permit for adoption, for example, can take years. But in the case of abortion, a permit would have to be obtained in a matter of days.

So, having said all that, what I propose is that abortion is permitted, but an abortion process is required. That is, a mother doesn't just show up for an appointment and that's it.

Specifically, I propose that abortion becomes a mandatory Bilateral, Cascaded, Staged, 3-days process

Bilateral means that at every stage in the process, both a pro-abortion and a pro-life coach participates.  
Cascaded means that the purpose of each stage is to find the way to save the baby without killing nor ruining the life of the mother.

The first stage, on day one, is education and awareness building. Each coach on each side provides the mother with the full spectrum of choices, reasons and justification criteria. For example, a pro-life coach could explain what science really says about it, or notice an external coercion, or try to put the baby into the equation as much as possible. My ideal outcome here is that the mother changes her mind by having realized it was going to be a huge mistake.
 
The second stage, on day two, is to actively pursue a resolution of the conflict. Here, the life conflict that continuing with the pregnancy puts on this specific mother is carefully considered. The pro-life coach would present and champion all the continuation possibilities, while the pro-abortion coach would assess the actual viability and appropriate timeline of them. Again, my ideal outcome in stage two is that the mother finds a way to keep the baby but having resolved the conflict that it entails.

The third stage, on day three, and having the first two stages failed, is to build awareness of the post-abortion irreversible state. Here the coaches would present exemplificatory cases, from both sides, so the mother can thoughtfully anticipate the consequences of her final decision.

If staged three failed, the abortion is performed at the end of it, on day three. A very important part of this proposal is that the cascaded stages are all persuasive, but the choice is on the mother. This is the only realistic position since the choice is always on the mother one way or another. If the process were to be such that it is ruled whether the mother is allowed or not, then its only effect would be to push the abortion to the outlaw practices, but it wouldn't be prevented.

 


That is all a bit off the top of my head and there are lots of details to consider, but it seems to me that this Bilateral, Cascaded, Staged, 3-days process would realistically, effectively prevent the huge majority of abortions.

 
 


 

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Generally people react in a very emotional way to this issue, even attacking those who do not think like them. So it is good to think well about the subject, but sadly people get carried away by their passions to make decisions and only think about the present material life.

I wonder what would happen if through the ITC or another method people could access the information of the spirits on many topics in this case about abortion and they told the person that they should not do it because the spirit to reincarnate must pass for that experience (good or bad) to progress and that the mother and he / she met in dreams and agreed on this plan.

I imagine that there will be people who, as it is not convenient for them, will say that it is a lie or that they are demons lying, that where is the free will then ...

It's a difficult topic...

P.S. There is a chapter in the novel Nosso Lar (Astral City) where a spirit of a person who caused and promoted abortion appears, very interesting ...

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Andres, thanks for your considered and creative proposal! I hope Alberto weighs in, as this is his topic. I would just add a few points here. 

There is no consensus about when life begins, even in spiritist circles. And even if we had exact and nuanced knowledge of the various stages of "life" leading to physical birth, ethical dilemmas would remain. But we do have exact knowledge about the life of the mother, of which she is the first-person expert. By this logic, one would defer to the known vs. the unknown, allowing the mother to decide (pro-choice). On the other hand, if there is a reasonable doubt about when life begins, one could argue that abortion has at least some probability of being murder (pro-life). Given these uncertainties, your 3-step process makes sense. 

On the question of abortion, I tend to defer to the female voice. Women complain, and rightly so, that men are making decisions for them, and I agree. Women have a range of opinions about abortion, but they have a greater degree of sovereignty in this matter because of their direct, biological connection to the fetus and their own bodies & circumstances. 

Politically here in the US, the pro-choice crowd tends to be aligned with the left, and the pro-life crowd with the right. Abortion rights were an outcome of the of the human rights movement. The right has deteriorated into the party of Trump, totally lacking in ethics. So for those on the left who are pro-life, it is an unfortunate association. In the US, the right favors the death penalty, the wealthy at the expense of the poor, religious extremism that suppresses gender equality, murder by warfare, vaccine hesitancy that has resulted in countless deaths, and does not blink at the suffering of refugees and asylum seekers. I don't know how the politics plays out in other countries. I suspect that in some South America countries that lean Catholic, pro-life culture might dominate for religio-cultural reasons. (Not to generalize here, as I believe Andres is motivated more by reason than faith.)

 

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Alberto, thanks for the link to that movie! There are anecdotes in the near-death experience literature about NDE'ers meeting adult siblings on the other side. These were souls who were aborted, but continued to live out their existence on the other side. If true, this is a creative solution to the problem of aborted souls, though I imagine evolving on the other side is not quite the same as on this side. There seems to be less of a "punishment" mentality in the spirit world than we hold here in the physical world. 

Another example of this point - a book by Jon Klimo examining messages from the souls of suicide victims. They are immediately "forgiven" and in some cases, accepted for their decisions. They deal with it in a loving atmosphere.

I'm not saying we should be totally relativistic, without exploring moral questions on this side. But we should respect that the creative forces may have a bigger and more benevolent view of morality than we do. 

Edited by sglanz
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Hello  sglanz .., I have also read some reports of suicides and people who aborted accidentally or naturally, apparently the spiritual world is more forgiving than us on this plane.

What I have not read or found, (apart from the part mentioned in Nosso Lar's novel), is about people who during their life promoted, fought, performed and supported others to have an abortion and that thanks to them many were carried out.  What did they say, what did they feel in the spiritual world , etc ...

It would be interesting...

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My understanding is that we create our own reality. On the other side, we attract a reality that resonates with our soul, so the environment is subjective, custom-tailored, and somewhat relativistic. At the same time, there are some commonalities, like the life review, and the experiencing of how we affected others on earth through empathic magnification. So to your question, Alberto, about how abortion providers might experience the afterlife, it will be on a case-by-case basis. There is no punishment or judgment, unless the soul believes in judgment, and then they engage in self-judgment for their own learning and evolution. 

As a thought experiment, consider the case of a mother whose life would have been horrible had she gone through with delivery. She would be grateful for the abortion, and the provider will feel her gratitude in the afterlife. On the other hand, he might have to experience the pain of the unborn child on the other side, and the mixed emotions of his social circles. I'm curious about how the film maker treats this subject. 

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sglanz . yes maybe its case by case thing as many matters are on the afterlife...

The book Nosso Lar was channeled by Andre Luiz trough the medium Chico Xavier, so supposedly its a non fiction book and the abortion scene its not in the movie, as many other things didnt make it to the film....mainly I think because many of these things were a little complex  or advanced or will schock or confusse the viewer and could make it reject the movie...

I only watched the movie after a while of researching the afterlife and loved it bacause I could see the things that I had read so many times  graphically ...



There another movie based on a Chico Xavier Book  also by  the spirit Andre Luiz....its on youtube and it has russian subtitles, but on this case if you select the option of translate the subtitles to english ones, it makes a very good work near perfect.... I reccomend you watch it after Nosso Lar


 



 

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22 hours ago, Alberto said:

Generally people react in a very emotional way to this issue, even attacking those who do not think like them. So it is good to think well about the subject, but sadly people get carried away by their passions to make decisions and only think about the present material life.

I wonder what would happen if through the ITC or another method people could access the information of the spirits on many topics in this case about abortion and they told the person that they should not do it because the spirit to reincarnate must pass for that experience (good or bad) to progress and that the mother and he / she met in dreams and agreed on this plan.

I imagine that there will be people who, as it is not convenient for them, will say that it is a lie or that they are demons lying, that where is the free will then ...

It's a difficult topic...

P.S. There is a chapter in the novel Nosso Lar (Astral City) where a spirit of a person who caused and promoted abortion appears, very interesting ...

Hi Alberto,

Regarding some form of tanscommunication that could provide us with information about something like abortion, there is this interesting event that occurred in my Spiritist Church some 20 years ago.

Occasionally, we do something which in Spanish we call "videncia": basically, a special gathering with a significant number of people and such that many of them are mediums (which is usually the case with such a Church), the "higher worlds" present to us a sort of "clairvoyant movie". Is not just a still image as in the typical case, but a "motion picture". All the clairvoyant mediums then proceed to collaboratively describe what they are all seeing.

As you can imagine, this type of event can only be done every once in a while, it takes a lot of preparation, and lots of conditions have to be meet. But when it is successfully done, it's very, very informative.  My church did a number of these over its 100 years of existence, but one was specifically targeted to abortion. 

I'm not clairvoyant myself so I couldn't see a thing, but I was there, and I could picture the whole thing in my head as the mediums were describing it.

What the higher worlds showed us was an abortion procedure, and what was happening on the spiritual side of it. The following is from memory, and I might have some of the details wrong after all this time, but...

I recall the baby spirit, being like a snow flake of sorts. And I quite vividly recall the baby spirit moving frenetically, bouncing between the mother's spirit and the doctor's spirit.  The baby spirit was, literally as it gets, screaming out load trying to save his life. From his point of view, it was being killed, and he fought until the last second.  He wasn't trying to save his body or stop the procedure "physically", but he was trying to be heard so the mother and the doctor could realize what they were doing.

(Clairvoyantly) you could see him go to the mother, then to the doctor, then to the mother. Back and forth. And you could see him doing that more and more frenetically as the speed and the alternation frequency ramped up and up and up. Eventually, he stopped. Moved to what looked like his body being removed and then tossed away. At that point in particular, a sort of beam of light sort of shinned onto the baby spirit and he was gone from the place.

You could also see a kind of dark-colored cloud or dense mist all around the mother's and doctor's head, which then seemed to begin to filling the entire room when the procedure was over. 

I don't recall the details of the other people helping the doctor, or if the father was there.

 

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Granted, people might challenge the objectivity of the preceding description. And for sure it does not need to mean that every single case of abortion is like that. But I would argue that it is as objective as mediumship can get. And I would imagine that it represents the majority of the cases.

A very interesting note for us here on Varanormal is that my measure of absolute success for ITC is to reproduce that sort of "motion picture" in a way that all of humanity can objectively watch it, without any questioning about its source, veracity and accuracy of content.

Then, when we have that, maybe this description gets confirmed (or maybe not, of course).

In any case, you might imagine how I personally feel about this thing. 

Interestingly, my gut reaction when I read the news about the legalization of abortion was to get, first sad then desperate. So I started writing something. And that something included the description above, and was essentially just another expression of "your are killing babies please stop!".

But soon I realized that it made no sense to write that.  Pro-life people would just agree with me and just join the despair. Pro-choice people would just absolutely ignore me, from first to last word. So I discarded the whole thing and started again, this time eventually coming up with the "meet in the middle" proposal presented above.

 

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23 hours ago, sglanz said:

Andres, thanks for your considered and creative proposal! I hope Alberto weighs in, as this is his topic. I would just add a few points here. 

There is no consensus about when life begins, even in spiritist circles. And even if we had exact and nuanced knowledge of the various stages of "life" leading to physical birth, ethical dilemmas would remain. But we do have exact knowledge about the life of the mother, of which she is the first-person expert. By this logic, one would defer to the known vs. the unknown, allowing the mother to decide (pro-choice). On the other hand, if there is a reasonable doubt about when life begins, one could argue that abortion has at least some probability of being murder (pro-life). Given these uncertainties, your 3-step process makes sense. 

On the question of abortion, I tend to defer to the female voice. Women complain, and rightly so, that men are making decisions for them, and I agree. Women have a range of opinions about abortion, but they have a greater degree of sovereignty in this matter because of their direct, biological connection to the fetus and their own bodies & circumstances. 

Politically here in the US, the pro-choice crowd tends to be aligned with the left, and the pro-life crowd with the right. Abortion rights were an outcome of the of the human rights movement. The right has deteriorated into the party of Trump, totally lacking in ethics. So for those on the left who are pro-life, it is an unfortunate association. In the US, the right favors the death penalty, the wealthy at the expense of the poor, religious extremism that suppresses gender equality, murder by warfare, vaccine hesitancy that has resulted in countless deaths, and does not blink at the suffering of refugees and asylum seekers. I don't know how the politics plays out in other countries. I suspect that in some South America countries that lean Catholic, pro-life culture might dominate for religio-cultural reasons. (Not to generalize here, as I believe Andres is motivated more by reason than faith.)

 

Very good points here Steve! [though I'm not Andres, LOL 🙃]
 
For me one of the primary goals of ITC is to open a reliable information channel to the higher worlds so that we can finally get to objectively know all these non-physical facts. 
As a knowledge producing technique, mediumship is rather limited, for a number of factors, which is why, as you said, something as factual as the "ethereal stages of life" varies even among spiritist circles.
But I believe that the physical externality of ITC (that is, its objectivity, since the objective is the external due to its nature of being an object, not a subject), allows ITC techniques to methodologically progress towards better and better approximations to the truth.

Unfortunately, we are not there yet, and "videncias" like the one I described above can do very little.

You make a good point, and I agree, on the higher weight of the female voice. For instance, in my proposal it didn't even occur to me that the bilateral coaches could be males. However, I just realized that it would be a mistake to give too little room to the male voice. Specially the father. So, it just occurred to me that in the 3-stages process, both the mother and father should participate, even if at the end of it the final choice is on the mother alone.

I'm afraid that politically, it is pretty much the same down here. Pro-choice people align naturally with the left due to their usual misunderstanding of the nature of freedom (IMHO). Then the pro-life people bend to the right by simple opposition. But, the right wind is way too individualist, with an even deeper misunderstanding of the nature of freedom (also IMHO), so the association is counter productive and even counter intuitive.

What I didn't mention at all is religion, basically because I don't think it can help in any way due to the fact that no one cares about the position of religion X outside of religion X, and at least here in Argentina, none of the religions hold any significant weight in politics and to an extent, in the general public opinion outside their followers.

 

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hace 2 horas, Fernando Luis Cacciola Carballal dijo:

You could also see a kind of dark-colored cloud or dense mist all around the mother's and doctor's head, which then seemed to begin to filling the entire room when the procedure was over

@Fernando Luis Cacciola Carballal Wow ! Thanks for that story its very interesting and that last part about the dark colored mist remind me of  the Nosso Lar Book about the spirit of a women  who was considered a vampire and was filled of dark spots, and they said each spot represented an abortion, she was an pro choice doctor on life who made hundreds of abortions....and also the Umbral (the lower dark astral dimension) was full of puddles and mud and it said that filthy water was dense fluids that the spirits had to "sweat out"    in order to progress to a higher sphere

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On 10/15/2021 at 12:53 AM, sglanz said:

Alberto, thanks for the link to that movie! There are anecdotes in the near-death experience literature about NDE'ers meeting adult siblings on the other side. These were souls who were aborted, but continued to live out their existence on the other side. If true, this is a creative solution to the problem of aborted souls, though I imagine evolving on the other side is not quite the same as on this side. There seems to be less of a "punishment" mentality in the spirit world than we hold here in the physical world. 

Another example of this point - a book by Jon Klimo examining messages from the souls of suicide victims. They are immediately "forgiven" and in some cases, accepted for their decisions. They deal with it in a loving atmosphere.

I'm not saying we should be totally relativistic, without exploring moral questions on this side. But we should respect that the creative forces may have a bigger and more benevolent view of morality than we do. 

According to the spiritualist sources I follow, you are quite right about the fact that our human sense of "justice" is nothing like that of the higher worlds.  Even in the lower Astral plane, which is the immediate next station, there is, as you said, less of a punishment mentality. 

In the higher planes, forgiveness is the far more common, to an extent that we humans would consider unfair (while in fact it isn't at all unfair even if we can't wrap our minds around it). While, for a number of reasons that I can't write down here to prevent going way off topic, an aborting mother is unlikely to end up in these higher planes at first, the spirits here would completely forgive such a mother and they would be no trace of punishment.

And for what is worth, in the highest planes (say the Angelic plane if you follow that hierarchy), where God shines the most, the very concept of forgiveness as an after fact doesn't even exist because "a hurting act" is not at all seen as such to begin with. Every action is seen as a dependent reflection of the vibrational (say mental or emotional to put it in human terms) state. In there, an aborting mother is not seen at all as someone having caused a great pain, but as someone which is IN a great pain who just cannot do any better.

And you are also right, according to the sources, in the fact that our views on the nature of a problem are not the same as in the after life, specially the higher you get. For us, a problem isn't just a circumstance that requires a solution, it is, rather, a circumstance that should not be accepted. We then attach an emotional weight to the problem that defines its measure beyond the problem all by itself.  But, the greater the acceptance, the lesser the emotional weight and the higher the chances of finding and implementing a solution. 

So, effectively, for the baby spirit, the aftermath of an abortion looks far brighter than we can imagine from here.

Having said all that, my view is that the weight of the mistake of abortion lies not as much on the fate of the baby spirit, nor on the fate of the mother from the balance of punishment vs forgiveness she might receive, but on the inevitable consequences on her own self right at the core soul level. And THAT is the most fundamental reason why it should be avoided and a mother helped to see this mistake for what it is.

 

 

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On 10/15/2021 at 1:25 AM, Alberto said:

What I have not read or found, (apart from the part mentioned in Nosso Lar's novel), is about people who during their life promoted, fought, performed and supported others to have an abortion and that thanks to them many were carried out.  What did they say, what did they feel in the spiritual world , etc ...

It would be interesting...

I'm writing this here now just as a self-note to finish a paper I started which addresses in great detail situations like the one you just mentioned.

That is, what is the spiritual nature of doing wrong, why it is a bad idea, and what happens in the afterlife (and the next human lives) with all our hurting mistakes.  

I promise I'll finish that.

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On 10/15/2021 at 2:37 AM, sglanz said:

So to your question, Alberto, about how abortion providers might experience the afterlife, it will be on a case-by-case basis. There is no punishment or judgment, unless the soul believes in judgment, and then they engage in self-judgment for their own learning and evolution. 

 

For what is worth, my understanding of the higher planes of the afterlife are in complete agreement with this.

I would only add that even if a mother does not believe in judgment; even if she seems completely free of any remorse and would seem to be able to, say, "live happily ever after", she would still not escape the self-created fate of the inevitable self-hurt that is always the consequence of any hurting mistake (because they are all forms of non loving, and any act not of love self hurts). She might, as we humans are all experts in doing, hide, deny, ignore or deflect the self-hurt, but it won't ever go away and sooner or later she will have to heal it, that is, face and repair it.

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On 10/15/2021 at 3:25 AM, Alberto said:

There another movie based on a Chico Xavier Book  also by  the spirit Andre Luiz....its on youtube and it has russian subtitles, but on this case if you select the option of translate the subtitles to english ones, it makes a very good work near perfect.... 


Wow! thank you Alberto! I didn't know about this one but I'm sure is going to be great!
 

 

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4 hours ago, Fernando Luis Cacciola Carballal said:

For what is worth, my understanding of the higher planes of the afterlife are in complete agreement with this.

I would only add that even if a mother does not believe in judgment; even if she seems completely free of any remorse and would seem to be able to, say, "live happily ever after", she would still not escape the self-created fate of the inevitable self-hurt that is always the consequence of any hurting mistake (because they are all forms of non loving, and any act not of love self hurts). She might, as we humans are all experts in doing, hide, deny, ignore or deflect the self-hurt, but it won't ever go away and sooner or later she will have to heal it, that is, face and repair it.

The assertion that abortion is a "hurting mistake" has not been proven. The only evidence presented in this thread are anecdotal reports of channelers observing souls struggling to be born, astral black marks on abortion providers, and soul linkages at certain stages of fetal development. We don't know if these reports are accurate or the result of bias. Other psychics see a whole different picture.

On the physical plane, abortion is often chosen as a way to reduce suffering, not induce it. On the spirit plane, love is the rule, and forgiveness for those who believe they have sinned, even if they haven't. 

If "hurting" is the standard for accountability, we're all in trouble. Much of the food we eat is derived from the killing of plants and animals, who suffer when they are destroyed. The very cells of our bodies are in a constant state of apoptosis - when those cells die, they suffer. But if they don't die, we die! By this standard, we would all be so burdened by "hurting mistakes" that our souls would be in a constant state of darkness, with no hope of redemption. That's not how the Universe is designed.

Humans judging and punishing other humans for abortion does more harm than good. The welfare of the mother and her physical and social context are often ignored to the point of abuse. The victory of the left for human rights, civil rights, and women's rights, was not a mistake. Fernando's three layer system is one of the best I've seen to discern the propriety of abortions on a case-by-case basis, but its underlying moral judgment and belief about when "life" begins need to be balanced. 

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On 10/15/2021 at 7:25 PM, Fernando Luis Cacciola Carballal said:

I'm afraid that politically, it is pretty much the same down here. Pro-choice people align naturally with the left due to their usual misunderstanding of the nature of freedom (IMHO). Then the pro-life people bend to the right by simple opposition. But, the right wind is way too individualist, with an even deeper misunderstanding of the nature of freedom (also IMHO), so the association is counter productive and even counter intuitive.

What I didn't mention at all is religion, basically because I don't think it can help in any way due to the fact that no one cares about the position of religion X outside of religion X, and at least here in Argentina, none of the religions hold any significant weight in politics and to an extent, in the general public opinion outside their followers.

 

I don't understand how abortion rights are a misunderstanding of the nature of freedom. I can understand how rebelling against Covid guidelines is a such a misunderstanding, because collective survival trumps individual freedom in that case. But the analogy does not apply to abortion, because the evidence for harm to self, baby soul or society has not been established.

On the contrary, the denial of choice for a woman is a human rights violation that men never have to face. Historically, it has been used to keep women under control and disempowered, and to expand tribal populations for political advantage. The religious right has not aligned with pro-life just to oppose the left. They passionately embrace it under the pretense of "sanctity of life" without proof, in order to dominate women and enforce their world view on others. It is the left that opposes this, not just for the sake of opposition, but to counter the threat. 

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There is a complex interweaving of personal, social and karmic forces surrounding conception and birth. So the moral and ethical choices surrounding abortion cannot be oversimplified. Is an incoming soul aware of these forces? Do they have an inside track on creation that we don't? Can a soul decide to willingly withdraw its links to the fetus if it sees the life of mother, society and itself would be better served that way? And how would that play out in terms of a "hurting mistake?" Do we even know when these astral links are made, what they look like, and how they function? 

The scientific and philosophical questions about when life "begins" is missing an important contributor, and that is ITC! At present, our technology is rudimentary, but agreeing with Fernando, the ideal is that it reveals in an objective way what happens on subtle planes, and how souls integrate with physical bodies at birth and beyond. Reliance on psychics and mediums is fraught with problems, as the worldview of the psychic/medium often colors what they see. That's not to say there aren't methods to check a psychic's accuracy rating; just that this a problematical reliance that a successful implementation of ITC can theoretically resolve. 

Fernando's 3 stage adjudication of abortion choice is brilliant. Unfortunately, implementing such a nuanced process is unlikely in today's polarized world. Historically, the religious right has blurred any such nuance. In some middle eastern cultures, women are forced to remain barefoot and pregnant, and punished for asserting their rights to play any other role in life. This was somewhat true in Western cultures as well, until the human rights movements took hold, bringing in abortion rights as a natural adjunct. Even now, before the Texas ban was temporarily overturned by a higher court, we saw the reversion to dangerous back alley abortions. To be sure, the influx of religious right conservatism into the US Supreme Court is only exacerbating the polarization. I wish it were not so, and that creative ideas like Fernando's 3-stage process could be considered. 

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10 hours ago, sglanz said:

The assertion that abortion is a "hurting mistake" has not been proven. The only evidence presented in this thread are anecdotal reports of channelers observing souls struggling to be born, astral black marks on abortion providers, and soul linkages at certain stages of fetal development. We don't know if these reports are accurate or the result of bias. Other psychics see a whole different picture.

On the physical plane, abortion is often chosen as a way to reduce suffering, not induce it. On the spirit plane, love is the rule, and forgiveness for those who believe they have sinned, even if they haven't. 

If "hurting" is the standard for accountability, we're all in trouble. Much of the food we eat is derived from the killing of plants and animals, who suffer when they are destroyed. The very cells of our bodies are in a constant state of apoptosis - when those cells die, they suffer. But if they don't die, we die! By this standard, we would all be so burdened by "hurting mistakes" that our souls would be in a constant state of darkness, with no hope of redemption. That's not how the Universe is designed.

Humans judging and punishing other humans for abortion does more harm than good. The welfare of the mother and her physical and social context are often ignored to the point of abuse. The victory of the left for human rights, civil rights, and women's rights, was not a mistake. Fernando's three layer system is one of the best I've seen to discern the propriety of abortions on a case-by-case basis, but its underlying moral judgment and belief about when "life" begins need to be balanced. 

Oops.. I didn't intend to assert that abortion necessarily is a hurting mistake. You are correct that this is still debated, and what I think it is, doesn't have to be the truth. I was focusing on what happens even if it is so. 

See this is why I proposed a BILATERAL process. So that the pro-choice coach has a chance to clarify, as you did, that mediumship-channled accounts are painted with the color of the medium and should not be taken as accurate as the pro-life coach will like them to be. 

I used the expression "hurting mistake" to refer to those actions that put others on painful situations (i.e. they hurt) and are mistaken, such as unnecessary, unfair, etc...  That's why the expression combines the two, so that it isn't just hurting, neither is just mistaken. In your example, eating other living beings is hurtful for them, but is not mistaken because it is designed that way. 

I personally believe that the only form of accountability that really works is self-accountability. And even at that, it should not be confused with (self) blame or shame. So would say that judging and punishing other humans does always more harm than good, no matter what they've done.

And in the case of abortion, I would never judge nor punish an aborting mother even if I personally considered this specific case as a hurting mistake, but, additionally, I would never claim that my assessment of it being as such is certain and proven, because you are correct and we don't really know for sure, not yet. I do think there will a time, soon probably, when we will, but I can't yet consider abortion to be certainly involving this or that fact.

You are also right that our biased believes and positions about what is it that a mother effectively does when doing an abortion must be balanced. That's the purpose of the process being bilateral, so that the mother can hear and be persuaded from both sides. 

Being biased is almost inevitable it seems. I'm trying here to be as balanced, unjudgmental and neutral as possible, but the fact that I do personally believe that abortion is, effectively in the majority of the cases, a hurting mistake, spills all over the place. 

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12 hours ago, sglanz said:

I don't understand how abortion rights are a misunderstanding of the nature of freedom. I can understand how rebelling against Covid guidelines is a such a misunderstanding, because collective survival trumps individual freedom in that case. But the analogy does not apply to abortion, because the evidence for harm to self, baby soul or society has not been established.

On the contrary, the denial of choice for a woman is a human rights violation that men never have to face. Historically, it has been used to keep women under control and disempowered, and to expand tribal populations for political advantage. The religious right has not aligned with pro-life just to oppose the left. They passionately embrace it under the pretense of "sanctity of life" without proof, in order to dominate women and enforce their world view on others. It is the left that opposes this, not just for the sake of opposition, but to counter the threat. 

LOL

I also didn't mean to associate the specific fight for the legal right to abort with a misunderstanding of the nature of freedom. I meant that many of the human rights fights are actually fights for human disregard to others.

The problem I see in this typical polarity is that the reaction to oppression, that is, my choice being taken away, is the disregard for the effect of my choices on others. Wanting you to do what I want, regardless of you, or, wanting me to do what I want, regardless of you, are two sides of the same coin. Both left and right are polar, opposite forms of disregard for others. 

The underlying reasoning behind denying the right of a mother to abort is exactly the same as that of denying one person to kill another. And it almost makes sense. The problem, of course, is that it is only the same if it really is the same, but we just don't really know. 

So, for the time being and until we can tell how it really is, I totally agree with you that this particular right is a fair fight. That is why my proposal is such that the choice is on the mother and the process is not ruling on the abortion, only preparing the mother to make a carefully considered, serious, committed, adult decision.

What I tried to say is that it is unfortunate that by association, this fight is put alongside, for example, rebelling against Covid guidelines as you mentioned.

 

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4 hours ago, sglanz said:

There is a complex interweaving of personal, social and karmic forces surrounding conception and birth. So the moral and ethical choices surrounding abortion cannot be oversimplified. Is an incoming soul aware of these forces? Do they have an inside track on creation that we don't? Can a soul decide to willingly withdraw its links to the fetus if it sees the life of mother, society and itself would be better served that way? And how would that play out in terms of a "hurting mistake?" Do we even know when these astral links are made, what they look like, and how they function? 

The scientific and philosophical questions about when life "begins" is missing an important contributor, and that is ITC! At present, our technology is rudimentary, but agreeing with Fernando, the ideal is that it reveals in an objective way what happens on subtle planes, and how souls integrate with physical bodies at birth and beyond. Reliance on psychics and mediums is fraught with problems, as the worldview of the psychic/medium often colors what they see. That's not to say there aren't methods to check a psychic's accuracy rating; just that this a problematical reliance that a successful implementation of ITC can theoretically resolve. 

Fernando's 3 stage adjudication of abortion choice is brilliant. Unfortunately, implementing such a nuanced process is unlikely in today's polarized world. Historically, the religious right has blurred any such nuance. In some middle eastern cultures, women are forced to remain barefoot and pregnant, and punished for asserting their rights to play any other role in life. This was somewhat true in Western cultures as well, until the human rights movements took hold, bringing in abortion rights as a natural adjunct. Even now, before the Texas ban was temporarily overturned by a higher court, we saw the reversion to dangerous back alley abortions. To be sure, the influx of religious right conservatism into the US Supreme Court is only exacerbating the polarization. I wish it were not so, and that creative ideas like Fernando's 3-stage process could be considered. 

Right... those are all questions whose answers we can only approximate, and you are also right that these provide the relevant facts to consider what it is to abort on each specific case. 
I also think that many of these questions apply to life in general, not just pre-birth, such that any form of incarnation interruption, whether pre-link, pre-birth, or later needs to be "judged" with all these facts into account.

I think that natural processes like incarnation have general traits, and that therefore, it is possible to make a generalized, simplified reasoning to classify abortion instances.  I have my own personal set of ideas and believes (sort of approximate answers to your questions) from which to make such a classification, and from there, comes my belief that in the majority of the cases, abortion is effectively a hurting mistake. 
For instance, according to the research I've made, the cases of a pregnancy posing a threat to the mothers life (which is one of the cases in which I think the abortion is, or can be at least, justified) are extremely low [interestingly, here in Argentina that case has always been permitted and there was no need for the new Law there]. 

Another case which I think has at least a high degree of justification is rape. But then again, the numbers show that these cases are a very low minority. 

The most typical case is, according the the figures I've seen, a young woman regularly having unprotected sex and having a potential abortion as an easy solution should they "have an accident". This scenario is supported, however, by the belief that a fetus is not a baby, so is not that they have no regard for the life of a baby, they just don't think that's what a fetus is (otherwise the situation would be quite different). 

So in my views, the typical case is largely a consequence of ignorance. We just don't know what I think we should know, that it really is a baby.
Which is why, as you and Alberto said, ITC is of monumental importance here.

In fact... this is just a color note, but I've got seriously interested in ITC specifically because I wished that the "Videncia" I described above could be objectively shown to all of humanity. You might find here one of my earlier posts about a "mediumship based ITC", and the inspiration for that came first from trying to figure out how to reproduce that "videncia" instrumentally.


 

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3 hours ago, Fernando Luis Cacciola Carballal said:

The most typical case is, according the the figures I've seen, a young woman regularly having unprotected sex and having a potential abortion as an easy solution should they "have an accident". This scenario is supported, however, by the belief that a fetus is not a baby, so is not that they have no regard for the life of a baby, they just don't think that's what a fetus is (otherwise the situation would be quite different). 

So in my views, the typical case is largely a consequence of ignorance. We just don't know what I think we should know, that it really is a baby.

This is the heart of the debate. Is a fetus a baby? At what stage? How do we define life? When does life begin?

Socrates taught that the beginning of knowledge is the admission that we are ignorant. Asking a question is innocent. Answering the question before there is enough evidence to back it up is less innocent. And imposing that answer on others is oppressive. This is how religion evolves. A great teacher asks a question. The student turns it into a answer. The students' student converts it into a dogma. Successive generations turn the dogma into a law punishable by death. Resistance and warfare follow. The founder of the religion is long gone, having no control over the corruption that followed. 

Your experience with Videncia was obviously very moving, and inspired you to begin your journey with ITC. I admire your passion and talent, and I hope you continue to maintain objectivity and an open mind. 

Given the limits of our knowledge, we might be able to approximate the veracity of psychic information in various ways. On the topic of abortion, for example, we could 1) peruse the published literature for "channelings" about when life begins, the consequences of abortion, etc. This might include ITC, though I suspect the topic does not come up very often in ITC; 2) create a survey of psychics and mediums to look for consensus, or not. The Remote Viewing community tends to be more "scientific" in its approach, so we could borrow some of their protocols for the survey. This is tricky, because its too easy to attract the answers you want to hear, so the survey would have to be carefully designed. 

Even if these methods came up with a definitive answer, I would be surprised if it had any effect on policy. Psychic detectives are used less and less in the courtroom, and their testimony is rarely regarded as decisive. More consensus has been built around the broad outlines of the afterlife based on work pioneered by Raymond Moody, and replicated by other methods. But that took years and years of cultural re-conditioning. 

So we plod along with ITC, hoping that a perfected technology will open the door to the unfiltered truth! 

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On 10/17/2021 at 9:49 PM, sglanz said:

This is the heart of the debate. Is a fetus a baby? At what stage? How do we define life? When does life begin?

Socrates taught that the beginning of knowledge is the admission that we are ignorant. Asking a question is innocent. Answering the question before there is enough evidence to back it up is less innocent. And imposing that answer on others is oppressive. This is how religion evolves. A great teacher asks a question. The student turns it into a answer. The students' student converts it into a dogma. Successive generations turn the dogma into a law punishable by death. Resistance and warfare follow. The founder of the religion is long gone, having no control over the corruption that followed. 

Your experience with Videncia was obviously very moving, and inspired you to begin your journey with ITC. I admire your passion and talent, and I hope you continue to maintain objectivity and an open mind. 

Given the limits of our knowledge, we might be able to approximate the veracity of psychic information in various ways. On the topic of abortion, for example, we could 1) peruse the published literature for "channelings" about when life begins, the consequences of abortion, etc. This might include ITC, though I suspect the topic does not come up very often in ITC; 2) create a survey of psychics and mediums to look for consensus, or not. The Remote Viewing community tends to be more "scientific" in its approach, so we could borrow some of their protocols for the survey. This is tricky, because its too easy to attract the answers you want to hear, so the survey would have to be carefully designed. 

Even if these methods came up with a definitive answer, I would be surprised if it had any effect on policy. Psychic detectives are used less and less in the courtroom, and their testimony is rarely regarded as decisive. More consensus has been built around the broad outlines of the afterlife based on work pioneered by Raymond Moody, and replicated by other methods. But that took years and years of cultural re-conditioning. 

So we plod along with ITC, hoping that a perfected technology will open the door to the unfiltered truth! 

YES. This is exactly the heart of the debate.

And the way I see it, it's fundamentally a Scientific Debate. Not an ethical one. Not a religious one. Not a philosophical one. Because those are scientifically answerable questions.

And that's a very good thing because ITC has a huge potential to become a scientifically valid observation and measurement device.

A research on our current channeled knowledge on the subject won't be any good I'm afraid, because outside our relatively very small circle, no one believes nor cares even about this type of factual information.

But ITC on the other hand, as you said, has the potential to resolve that!

 

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